M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Swaps, Turbos, Buildups => Topic started by: Esprit Aviation on March 25, 2010, 03:52:09 PM
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http://s824.photobucket.com/albums/zz161/mitchj5/
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Wow, never would have thought of that till I saw your pics. You just saved me alot of time and money. Thanks :cool:
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Thanks for the feedback. It cost about $757 including a complete custom stainless exhaust system. Also no intercooler.
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So you just flipped the header upside down, and you had some custom stainless work done? Why did you decide to run intercooler-less?
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Jeff,
Only to keep it simple for now. Especially throughout the tuning stage. We also have no plans to exceed 7psi, at least not in the near future. All emphasis was to keep it inexpensive.
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Thats so ghetto, but for some reason I really dig it! Way to be creative!
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thanks we used the stock header for maximum efficiency and "ghetto-ness" :cool: haha
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We were just informed that the BOV is the wrong way around and have taken the appropriate corrective action. So disregard the BOV in the photos.
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I like it. I'm all about being ghetto, wait until I post pics when I finish my '92 M42 cabrio!!
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There is something good to be said for using what you have access to :)
I will be interesting to see what numbers you get out of it. Mine won't be quite so resourceful but hopefully a lot more powerful.
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Thats brilliant, I love it! I assume that you are just running the stock ecu?
Also did you investigate mounting the turbo closer to the manifold? It looks like it could be difficult with the angle of the manifold flange.
Is the metal beam across the bay just to support the turbo and pipework?
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I like it. I'm all about being ghetto, wait until I post pics when I finish my '92 M42 cabrio!!
May we have a peak at your M42 Vert?
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May we have a peak at your M42 Vert?
pic load fail...........I have some pics in The Project Forum at R3VLimited. (Under "What Did You Do To Your E30 Today?) Same user name there and I have no trouble uploading a single pic within a post. No, I'm not up to speed on the PhotoBucket thang yet. I'm old, lol !!
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This is EXACTLY the kind of setup most people on this board can afford. Can we have more info? How's the performance?
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To answer the following in order, P-Zero: yes stock ecu, we tried to mount the turbo closer to the manifold but it was not as easy, and the beam does support the turbo and pipework. We are also running 1992 Saab Turbo injectors-22 lbs per hour. Ryan: Appreciate the support and the performance at 6 psi has fully met our expections :)
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another build..
http://www.ladda-upp.com/bilder-a/318is_turbo-852.jpg
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what kinda turbo you running? im liking this setup, super simple.
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Would run even better, if you loacte afm to non-prssurised side of your setup, like all turbo charged Motronic/AFM factory installations had back then.
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Really cool, and inspiring! Thanks! Guesses as to how much more power? Also, where is power band coming on?
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Been away for a while:
Golde30: It is a TE05-12b from a 92 Saab Turbo, we also use the injectors from the same car to eliminate the need for an rrfpr. We can run 8psiw/ no problems, however we limit it to 6-7psi to be on the safe side. There appears to be no reason to spend the cash for either a rrfprr or an intercooler up to 8psi with our set-up.
ose30: Thank you for the suggestion. I seem to recall that we did it after the turbo because of the use and placement of the BOV. If the AFM is before, and the BOV opens, the AFM flap will be open (possibly wide open) thus extremely enriching the mixture on the over-run. Our placement ensures that when the throttle plate closes and the BOV opens that the AFM flap is completely shut. Let me know if I am incorrect in this thought process.
jscribble: Thank you for the kind words. Conservatively, i would guess approx 165-170 absolutely reliable HP. The boost is very quick to rise, but I would have to drive and take more notes. To be sure, it pulls really hard @ approx 4000RPM. Make no mistake though, there is rather sufficient power/boost well below that. I wish I could get my hands on the car long enough to be more specific, but it is difficult to get it away from my son; it is his car. I'll just have to build another for myself!
Thanks to all for feedback.
Cheers! Lee
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Been away for a while:
Golde30: It is a TE05-12b from a 92 Saab Turbo, we also use the injectors from the same car to eliminate the need for an rrfpr. We can run 8psiw/ no problems, however we limit it to 6-7psi to be on the safe side. There appears to be no reason to spend the cash for either a rrfprr or an intercooler up to 8psi with our set-up.
ose30: Thank you for the suggestion. I seem to recall that we did it after the turbo because of the use and placement of the BOV. If the AFM is before, and the BOV opens, the AFM flap will be open (possibly wide open) thus extremely enriching the mixture on the over-run. Our placement ensures that when the throttle plate closes and the BOV opens that the AFM flap is completely shut. Let me know if I am incorrect in this thought process.
jscribble: Thank you for the kind words. Conservatively, i would guess approx 165-170 absolutely reliable HP. The boost is very quick to rise, but I would have to drive and take more notes. To be sure, it pulls really hard @ approx 4000RPM. Make no mistake though, there is rather sufficient power/boost well below that. I wish I could get my hands on the car long enough to be more specific, but it is difficult to get it away from my son; it is his car. I'll just have to build another for myself!
Thanks to all for feedback.
Cheers! Lee
So to understand you correctly you have swapped the ori injectors for bigger Saab turbo injectors without a tune and your running the stock Motronic?
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That's a pretty solid improvement for the money. Nice work.
If you get a chance, could you snap some pics of the intake setup, or some pics from below? Just curious as to the routing on the under side of that support.
Header wrap would probably help a lot here, since more of the exhaust temps stay in the engine bay.
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bmwconnect: Yes, the Saab Turbo injectors seem to be perfectly sized and they are electrically identical. The only difference is the flow rate. I believe it is 22.4 lbs/hr. We will be using the NGK AFR meter when we get time to weld in a bung to verify and report our mixture readings here. One other thing I forgot to mention is that we are running what I think is the Euro spec, no 02 sensor and with the wire on top of the engine bay harness connected (to allow at least the idle mixture to be influenced more by the AFM). Once again, some of this info I need to confirm, and some has been guesswork to keep cost down and still have a tractable set-up. Consider there is no expensive 02 sensor to partially block the exhaust stream, or work involved in splicng an aftermarket one in! Besides the car runs so well in our estimation that doing anything further is a waste of time other than to satisfy our curiosity.
jscribble: Thanks, we are VERY pleased w/the results. I will get some pics ASAP. To describe it: The air intake is taken directly from the left brake duct (We will add additional brake ducts if we decide to track the car in the future.) it then goes through a K&N Apollo filter and directly into the turbo. That is about it for the intake side. Underneath on the exhaust side we come off the turbo with 2.5 in SS pipe with a 90 degree bend turned slightly when welded to make it about 100 degrees, then as straight back as possible. We have considered header wrap which should retain more heat for turbo efficiency and keep underhood temps down, but, decided to try the worst-case scenario first.
We figured the paint would suffer on the hood and this was not the case. We don't detect any problems due to underhood heat yet. Another great benefit of using the stock header is that it cools very fast compared to a cast iron manifold and this helps to eliminate the need for header wrap.
Lee
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bmwconnect: Yes, the Saab Turbo injectors seem to be perfectly sized and they are electrically identical. The only difference is the flow rate. I believe it is 22.4 lbs/hr. We will be using the NGK AFR meter when we get time to weld in a bung to verify and report our mixture readings here. One other thing I forgot to mention is that we are running what I think is the Euro spec, no 02 sensor and with the wire on top of the engine bay harness connected (to allow at least the idle mixture to be influenced more by the AFM). Once again, some of this info I need to confirm, and some has been guesswork to keep cost down and still have a tractable set-up. Consider there is no expensive 02 sensor to partially block the exhaust stream, or work involved in splicng an aftermarket one in! Besides the car runs so well in our estimation that doing anything further is a waste of time other than to satisfy our curiosity.
jscribble: Thanks, we are VERY pleased w/the results. I will get some pics ASAP. To describe it: The air intake is taken directly from the left brake duct (We will add additional brake ducts if we decide to track the car in the future.) it then goes through a K&N Apollo filter and directly into the turbo. That is about it for the intake side. Underneath on the exhaust side we come off the turbo with 2.5 in SS pipe with a 90 degree bend turned slightly when welded to make it about 100 degrees, then as straight back as possible. We have considered header wrap which should retain more heat for turbo efficiency and keep underhood temps down, but, decided to try the worst-case scenario first.
We figured the paint would suffer on the hood and this was not the case. We don't detect any problems due to underhood heat yet. Another great benefit of using the stock header is that it cools very fast compared to a cast iron manifold and this helps to eliminate the need for header wrap.
Lee
unless your running a rrfpr to 100psi fuel rail those injectors will not support 7psi of boost...at 50psi of fuel pressure and 100% duty cycle they wont even support 5 psi. good luck!
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I wondered if anyone had used the brake duct as an air intake. I noticed most people don't have that duct in place anyway. Sounds like a nice setup. Points for doing it differently!
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unless your running a rrfpr to 100psi fuel rail those injectors will not support 7psi of boost...at 50psi of fuel pressure and 100% duty cycle they wont even support 5 psi. good luck!
If that were the case, then please explain how the stock 92 Saab Turbo produces 8-12 psi of useable boost with the same turbo and it's a 2.0 litre?
What type of set-up, turbo and size injectors are you running?
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touche.
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If that were the case, then please explain how the stock 92 Saab Turbo produces 8-12 psi of useable boost with the same turbo and it's a 2.0 litre?
What type of set-up, turbo and size injectors are you running?
1.There is no such thing as 8psi and 22LB injectors unless you increase fuel pressure with a RRFPR. 2.There is also no turbo Saab running rated 22LB@43.5psi injectors from factory. 3.The m42 motronic 1.7 factory ecu only runs the injectors at around 60% duty cycle at WOT
The m42 need's the fallowing min injector flow rate for 80-90% duty cycle and a rail pressure of 43.5psi
10psi = 30lb
15psi = 44lb
20psi = 60lb
I run a t3/t4 hybrid 60trim/intercooled/13psi/10:1 compression/2.5 exhaust with 37LB injectors at 95% duty cycle
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Conventional wisdom here concurs with bmwconnect. Most builds mention the need for ~30 lb injectors for 10 psi.
I'm surprised you have 37lbs running that high of a duty cycle. The need for fuel grows very quickly with added boost?
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Conventional wisdom here concurs with bmwconnect. Most builds mention the need for ~30 lb injectors for 10 psi.
I'm surprised you have 37lbs running that high of a duty cycle. The need for fuel grows very quickly with added boost?
I sold my 44LB set to a client that needed them asap...Running a high duty cycle is not that big of a deal as long as your not running on a track and putting the pedal to floor every few seconds because thats when they begin to heat up and fail.
The need for fuel yes but depending on the turbo size, intercooler size, air temp but the above is a good guide line but useless without a tune
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Thanks. Learning a lot. I'm starting to gather parts for a turbo setup, but won't be doing it for at least a year. I'm hoping to pull off 8-10 with a W.A.R. chip. I just want dialed in power, ready for dd, and well tuned enough to romp on the track when I get the chance.
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Thanks. Learning a lot. I'm starting to gather parts for a turbo setup, but won't be doing it for at least a year. I'm hoping to pull off 8-10 with a W.A.R. chip. I just want dialed in power, ready for dd, and well tuned enough to romp on the track when I get the chance.
Yup the miller war chip can get you up and running with no problems
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I just found injector specs for the 1992 Saab 2.0 turbo that was the donor car for the turbo and injectors.
Bosch 0 280 150 761, flow rate: 22.65 lb/hr or 238 cm3/min, Ohm: 16, HP/Injector: 48
To paraphrase BMWConnect: "There is also no turbo Saab running rated 22LB@43.5psi injectors from factory."
I also need to know: Proof that the ECU drives the injectors to only to 60% duty cycle @ WOT. It seems pointless to waste 40% duty cycle on any injector.
To again paraphrase BMWConnect: "Running a high duty cycle is not that big of a deal as long as your not running on a track and putting the pedal to floor every few seconds because thats when they begin to heat up and fail."
Since I=E/R, I=12volts/16ohms, I=.75amps. A figure low enough that any heat build-up is easily dissipated by these injectors @ 100% duty cycle for very long periods of time.
I certainly welcome any and all related info for clarification. I really need to know what it is I am missing.
Thanks
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I just found injector specs for the 1992 Saab 2.0 turbo that was the donor car for the turbo and injectors.
Bosch 0 280 150 761, flow rate: 22.65 lb/hr or 238 cm3/min, Ohm: 16, HP/Injector: 48
To paraphrase BMWConnect: "There is also no turbo Saab running rated 22LB@43.5psi injectors from factory."
I also need to know: Proof that the ECU drives the injectors to only to 60% duty cycle @ WOT. It seems pointless to waste 40% duty cycle on any injector.
To again paraphrase BMWConnect: "Running a high duty cycle is not that big of a deal as long as your not running on a track and putting the pedal to floor every few seconds because thats when they begin to heat up and fail."
Since I=E/R, I=12volts/16ohms, I=.75amps. A figure low enough that any heat build-up is easily dissipated by these injectors @ 100% duty cycle for very long periods of time.
I certainly welcome any and all related info for clarification. I really need to know what it is I am missing.
Thanks
I stand corrected about the saab injector...Do you know what the saab fuel pressure increases to at atmosphere? 50psi? 60psi?
Injectors get very hot even under normal driving circumstances... take a temp reading after a drive with a laser and you will see
Get correct size injectors and a tune/standalone and you will be a lot happier
If you need the stock spark and fuell maps I will gladly share
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hey Lee, had to join up so i could tell you nice work. also, i didn't see you mention a wideband, are you using one?
p.s. wanna come help with my turbo build?:D
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Jeremy,
Thanks! you will have to stop by to see it sometime. It is configured to run w/o any 02 feeding info to the ECU. We are currently running 6psi very effectively.
I still have to weld in a bung and borrow the wideband from my Lotus to get AFR. I will then report the results here and hopefully put some questions to rest.
I have to be careful with mods, I don't want him embaressing me in the Esprit! Ha Ha!!
I would be glad to help out. I just need to find some free time!
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How much would you say this build cost you roughly
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About $750.00 but it will depend on a few other factors that will either be incuded or optional for your set-up. I think there is an itemized list here somewhere on the forum. I will try to locate it and get back to you.
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That would be greatly appreciated
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I can't locate any list on or off the forum. Here is a list of all that went into it.
1992 Saab Turbo: te05-12b turbo, fuel injectors, blow-off valve (cost: free, I own donor car; locally a turbo is $75.00, injectors and BOV about $20.00). The teo5-12b is not very common, but seems to be ideally suited.
Stock header: free, everybody has one, and it will outflow anything out there.
Stainless steel support for turbo: free, a friend fabricated it. A piece of mild steel channel will work fine for approx. 10.00
All header to turbo stainless piping, flex coupling, flanges: Approx. $125.00
Complete straight through 2.5 inch stainless exhaust from turbo to muffler incl. mild steel muffler, resonator: Approx. $200.00.
All turbo to AFM aluminum pipe, flange: free from leftover parts in shop, approx. expected cost, $35.00
K&N Apollo air filter kit: $100.00
RH motor mount from 635i to raise engine on that side to provide clearance for header. (NOTE: additional plate on crossmember should be fabricated to align motor mount properly otherwise it is stretched horizontally). Cost $15.00
Electric cooling fan: $25.00-$75.00 depending on supplier.
Boost gauge: (VDO) $35.00
Misc. hose, stainless hardware, gaskets: $40.00
Total approx. $705.00. The previous estimate of $757.00 included stainless exhaust clamps and misc hardware that was not used.
I will be happy to provide more detail including possible sources, fabrication tips, etc. just let me know. We also have tons of pics if you need any specific views. Some can be seen on the first post in the Photobucket link.
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To help ensure success, I would invest in a AFX Powerdex air fuel ratio meter made by NGK, and weld in two bungs on the turbo inlet piping for the stock O2 and the wideband of the AFR meter.
If you want to learn more about turbocharging, read 'Maximum Boost' by Corky Bell.
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Did you have to modify the header at all? I cant seem to get mine on. Cylinder 3 tube hits the strut tower reinforcement?
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Did you have to modify the header at all? I cant seem to get mine on. Cylinder 3 tube hits the strut tower reinforcement?
Have you checked the condition of your motor mounts?
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Have you checked the condition of your motor mounts?
I never even thought about that. I might need some new ones. Ill definitely replace them when I put the new engine in in a few weeks. I have already started cutting up a.d welding the header to work, but maybe it will just give me more room
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I've been away for a while.
Don't cut anything! We used a taller engine mount on the pass side and a lower mount on the driver's side to rotate the engine (clockwise looking @ the front) w/o the engine interfering w/ the hood. I will try to find out which mounts we used and post; I think a early 635 mount is taller. The driver's side may possibly be left stock, but I am not certain.
The most important part is making a mount plate for the pass side mount so it prevents stretching the mount. We have not done this yet. My son's car is in Daytona Fl. We will when he comes home for the summer.
There may be slight differences in the e30 and e36 headers, so keep that in mind. Perhaps others can provide pertinent info.
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I've been away for a while.
Don't cut anything! We used a taller engine mount on the pass side and a lower mount on the driver's side to rotate the engine (clockwise looking @ the front) w/o the engine interfering w/ the hood. I will try to find out which mounts we used and post; I think a early 635 mount is taller. The driver's side may possibly be left stock, but I am not certain.
The most important part is making a mount plate for the pass side mount so it prevents stretching the mount. We have not done this yet. My son's car is in Daytona Fl. We will when he comes home for the summer.
There may be slight differences in the e30 and e36 headers, so keep that in mind. Perhaps others can provide pertinent info.
:DThe cutting has already been done. I am working on modifying it into a topmount manifold basically. I already got it to clear the strut tower reinforcement, now I need to make it so I can bolt my turbo to it.
I would still be interested in seeing what mounts you used. It would make routing my downpipe easier.
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does this car still run?