M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Engine + Driveline => Topic started by: ecalder on February 05, 2010, 02:02:12 PM
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OK so I've done some reasearch, I can buy a little aluminum block from powersteeringdeletes.com that works to loop my power steering so I don't have to modify the hose. Question is can I/should I continue to use my leaky rack Also do I completely drain the ATF in the rack that I use?
Thanks.
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You should replace the rack.
Any reason you want to go "manual?" The e30 rack is 4 turns lock to lock, ya know?
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my rack is more than 4 turns lock to lock
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A solid E36 or z-3 rack filled with ATF and capped with the bypass block is what I recommmend. On the white car I just finished the z-3 rack install with some new BFG tires when I cracked the head. Thats soon too be correct again, though, along with some mustang injectors and the coolant hose mess delete mod. We are trying to keep the black car whole long enougth to get through my son's first DE in May! :)
After that I want to remove the pump and put in a bypass block. I think you need a shorter turning circle unless you want to do a work out when you parallel park. Of course, I do that about twice a yeaar or less.
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I must be missing something,
I keep reading what a work out it is to not have power steering om these little lite e30's,
huh ?????
I have no problem
but then again I grew up wiht big heavy jags, adn triumps, and 55 chevys that did not have p/s
then again, im not a girly man
an old man, but not a girly man
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Mine was "converted" to manual by the PO. The dumbass took everything out an only capped the two holes where the banjo bolts go with bolts.
Anybody that says it's easy to parallel park one of these without PS is lying...unless their name is Magnus and is a competes in strongman competitions. It's not impossible but it is a bitch.
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Damn if I could only give it a whirl first! I'm no magnus... But this is not my dd either so maybe it's ok to have occasional parking troubles. So I've ordered the block. How do it get the ATF in there? There's some in the rack now but I was testing to see if it would leak and in doing so it all squirted out.
So if I don't like the delete, will this damage my new rack at all or can I then just remove the block and re run all of the hoses?
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if you just want to try it, just take off the belt and drive it, parallel park it. dont like it, reconnect. do like it then finish delete
what I did was put both bolts in tight to align it, then pull one out. the tight one will keep it aligned
squirt fliud in, replace bolt, turn lock to lock a few times, remove bolt, top off, replace
as far as easy to parallel park
for me im not lying, for me its not an issue
but i only have to parralell one time a day, and when your rolling I really like the non p/s road feel
to me it was worth getting rid of the extra belt, the ps leaks and cleaning things up
( i also have a/c delete and fan and fan clutch delete)
and any parasitic delete helps
no p/s, no a/c/ no fan,no throttle body crap, big injectors, cop kit, chipped all of those will help these little motors
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OK so I've done some reasearch, I can buy a little aluminum block from powersteeringdeletes.com that works to loop my power steering so I don't have to modify the hose. Question is can I/should I continue to use my leaky rack Also do I completely drain the ATF in the rack that I use?
Thanks.
You don't need to buy anything. Remove the pump and hoses, drain rack by turning the steering wheel from lock to lock with the banjo bolts removed, then reinstall the banjo bolts with a very short piece of hose over them. The power steering fluid does not lubricate the rack. It is a hydraulic fluid to transfer power from the pump to the rack. The rack it self is lubricated with grease just like a manual rack. That powersteeringdeletes.com is a crock of shit for lack of a better term. You don't need to loop the lines because without the PS pump there is no pressure in the system.
I've had mine like this for almost 3 years now. The rack is still good as new with no fluid inside.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2289/2420169052_9aec772d3c_o.jpg)
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tjts, you always come through with no-bullshit responses; love it. Now that I think of it, it makes perfect sense that the fluid is only needed by the pump and hydaulic system. I guess my setup is just fine.
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Mine was "converted" to manual by the PO. The dumbass took everything out an only capped the two holes where the banjo bolts go with bolts.
Anybody that says it's easy to parallel park one of these without PS is lying...unless their name is Magnus and is a competes in strongman competitions. It's not impossible but it is a bitch.
It is not that hard without power steering, I can one hand it when I'm pulling into a spot and I can parallel park with little effort. The trick is to be moving when you turn the wheels and make sure your tires are inflated to the proper pressure.
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It's just fine when the car is moving as many have stated but no PS in conjunction with an touchy ass clutch, keeping the car moving in a smooth manner is close to impossible. I find myslef putting my weight into the steering wheel to make it turn when I'm a dead stop.
The few times my wife was gotten the courage to ride in the car and sees me struggling she gives me a "WTF are you doing?" look. I try to explain the lack of power steering but she really doesn't understand what I'm saying...
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I've had my power steering out for a few months now. It is tolerable and I like it the way it is. On the other hand it is a workout for low speed turning. It is pretty clear that the steering cover life will be affected by the extra effort.
If not for the low speed effort you really won't think about it after a week or two, unless you are going between cars that have it and don't.
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Awesome, thanks for all of the feedback. I'll be moving on to the rack after I get all of my oil leaks solved. I noticed that without the lower oil pan I have a better view of the rack. Should I wait until after I have replaced the rack to re-attach the oil pan or will it not make a difference?
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one question: does it suck to race autocross with no PS?
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I hope not, I'm actually hoping it will make it more fun, at least that's what I read. From what I understand once the car is moving you don't have to use that much force. It's not my daily driver though so it's not as tough of a decision as for others.
Also tjts1 what kind of hose did you use there in pink?
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its just that in autocross you have to turn lock-to-lock extremely quickly at relatively low speeds... well i guess there is only one way to find out!!
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yesss and I still have at least four turns lock to lock... I'll lelt you know how it goes, next autocross is on the 28th if I can get my car put together in time!
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one question: does it suck to race autocross with no PS?
Not at all. It does take a little more effort at very very low speed (1st gear 180 degree turns etc) but the rest of the time its not noticeable. I also have a 3.2 turn E36 rack so its heavier than the stock 4 turn E30 rack. Totally manageable. With out any fluid in the rack its easier to tell when the front tire loses/gains grip or when it starts to under steer. It also self centers faster when you take your hand off the wheel.
what kind of hose did you use there in pink?
I'm sorry I don't remember. I think it was either coolant or oil hose. I just went into the auto parts with the banjo bolts in hand store and picked out the hose that fit.
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Sweet, I might just do that and unload this delete block. I guess the hose is really just acting as a spacer then, not worried about a seal... that's great info, thanks.
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It just keeps the dirt out. There is no pressure in the system.
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ok just one more question, tjts1. Are you running stock-sized tires in autocross? because wider and stickier tires do make the steering harder.
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Yeh I'm curious about that too... I'm running 205x50x15s with 180 treadwear tires. That might make it tough.
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195/60R14 RT615s the cheapest descent tires money can buy. The offset CABs and shorter M3 springs increased caster. More caster = more steering effort but it's really not an issue at all. That plus the 3.2 turn E36 rack make the steering feel completely different from stock. 205 tires are only 5% wider. I woudnt worry about it until you get up to 225+ or something crazy. Try doing an autoX without the PS belt to get a feel for it. Some people worry that the increased effort will slow them down but honesly, I would rather have that little bit extra torque at the wheels. AutoXing without PS is a more physical experience but I enjoy it. I only autoXed once with PS in the car. My last car was a Neon also with manual steering.
cheers
Justin
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I took off the belt and really like the way it drives but parking is a bia... I always back in park and my skrony ass struggles a little bit but when being pushed it feels pretty good but its a better trade off, now I just hope I will not have to parallel park lol, Btw I went to test it out on one of the roads by the com college up here and the back is a lot easier to catch when it decided to step out for whatever reason. I will most likely keep it for now.
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Another little thing you can do is swap for a slightly larger steering wheel. Early e34 wheels swap right over, or go for a nice M-Tech II in leather. I wouldn't go too big as it'll make the switches difficult to reach.
My plastic four spoke airbag wheel was always in the way so I swapped in a 'vert 3 spoke and it made a big difference. It needed refinishing too, but a $4 bottle of boot dye solved that. Remember that you'll need non-airbag stalks too.
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The steering effort improves when you remove the pump. If you like it with the belt off, you will like it better once you delete the pump. Saves a couple of pounds too. :)
I took off the belt and really like the way it drives but parking is a bia... I always back in park and my skrony ass struggles a little bit but when being pushed it feels pretty good but its a better trade off, now I just hope I will not have to parallel park lol, Btw I went to test it out on one of the roads by the com college up here and the back is a lot easier to catch when it decided to step out for whatever reason. I will most likely keep it for now.
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Finally changed the rack... DAMN that was a huge pain! In the end I had to remove the knuckle from the column since removing the knuckle from the rack was almost impossible with the rack in. Then to re-attach the knuckle I basically had to hammer the knuckle onto the rack, there was no coaxing it in. Once that was in the knuckle went into the steering column more easily than expected.
Do the non-airbag stalks swap out without any modification? I thought I'd be ok when I changed to the mtech 1 wheel but after a couple of autox I realize I need the stalks further away. It's so distracting to accidentally hit the turn signal or even worse the slow ass wiper!
I did remove the P/S pump and resevoir. I also no longer have A/C. Do I need to do anything to balance the weight or is it negligible? Also, the PO removed the A/C compressor but left the bracket installed. Can I leave the bracket out or did he leave it for a reason?
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ditch the bracket. you should even ditch the AC lines. if you are worried about the weight balance, you can always easily re-locate your battery into the engine bay.
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I did remove the P/S pump and resevoir. I also no longer have A/C. Do I need to do anything to balance the weight or is it negligible? Also, the PO removed the A/C compressor but left the bracket installed. Can I leave the bracket out or did he leave it for a reason?
actually, that AC bracket helps hold on the front timing chain cover. So if you remove it, you will have to find two shorter bolts to bolt back into the holed to help hold on the timing chain cover.
check out my PS delete that I did last night: http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=162329
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Hey creepingdeath, nice write-up. I finally completed my delete this weekend and took it out today for the first time. Can you verify my experience with yours?
OK so definitely the car is a pain when not moving or moving slowly, that's a given and I'm prepared for that (although I don't plan on doing much tight maneuvering with my e30, I did try to reverse park without the power steering and it was tough, took a couple tries actually:p).
My question is about the difficulty taking a corner or a u-turn, even with speed. Does your car fight back? Is this the "increased" road response that people are referring to or did I screw up my rack swap somehow. Basically if I'm going about 20mph into a turn I have no problem turning the wheel the first 1/2-3/4 turn, but then the car fights back after that. Is this because I've slowed down? At first I thought it was my alignment, but after the alignmnet it was still wierd. By the way, I told the guy to set the toe in exactly in the middle between stock and ZERO. I don't want to kill my daily driving abilities but hear a tighter toe-in makes for better turns at auto-x.
People say that as soon as you're moving you don't feel the difference, but I definitely feel the difference in a corner. I can see how this can be great in auto-x but also I think it will require re-learning how to drive as you actually have to concentrate on how hard you turn the wheel. Not enough and I'll hit a curb or a cone. Too much and I'll slide out. It will also require a new steering wheel a month I think!
Looking for feedback from non power steering junkies!
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You shouldn't be having problems at 20mph. Either there is something wrong with your steering mechanism or somebody needs to do some...
(http://2healthfitness.com/web_images/pushup.jpg)
:p
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You shouldn't be having problems at 20mph. Either there is something wrong with your steering mechanism or somebody needs to do some...
(http://2healthfitness.com/web_images/pushup.jpg)
:p
hahahaha
anything over 3mph is fine, it's just trying to turn from a dead stop that suck ass.
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you get used to it, and eventually it'll put a little more definition into your chest and arms. seriously. my ex hated it, but that's just one of many reasons she had to go.
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Ah! You're absolutely right! Push ups would not hurt one bit.
OK But seriously, if you're pulling a u-turn it feels exactly like if you hadn't deleted power steering? Or if you take a corner at 20mph?
I've been driving around a couple of days now, and I'm really getting used to it and enjoying it very much. BUT I'm a little worried to find out it is only noticeable at less than 3mph. This is because the rack swap was my first of its kind. I can't really see where it could have gone wrong, the steering wheel spun freely before I put the wheels back on.
I think I might be over analyzing, as usual. I guess there's an Autox this weekend I'll see if other power steering deleters can ease my worries by driving it!
What a crazy feeling when you get behind the wheel of a power steering car after driving a couple of days without it huh?
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No its not exactly the same as before. The steering gets progressively heavier the further you turn the wheel. The steering wheel will also want to snap back to the straight ahead position faster when you take your hands off the wheel. The progressively heavier steering the tighter you turn is nice to have once you get used to it. You can tell how tightly your turning with your eyes closed. Also when you get into a situation where the front tires lose grip or quickly regain grip (slide, understeer, over steer, rain, snow, gravel etc) you'll know exactly what the front tire is doing.
I think your steering is fine. Give it a little time and see if you get used to it. So long as you don't hear any weird noses and the car tracks straight when you take your hands off the wheel on the highway, you should be ok
cheers
Justin
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Right on Justin! I feel much better after reading that, it makes perfect sense.
Hey and doing some push-ups really does help!
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Quite a few whiners in here. I disconnected the PS on my miata, threw on coilovers and adjusted for max caster (been a while but IIRC it's around 6 degree's) along with -2.5 camper and running 205/50/15 falken azenis. Ratio is about 3.5 lock to lock. I'm small and I can still easily handle parallel parking it.
One thing the Mazda guys do to the PS racks, that I've yet to do to mine, is tear apart the rack and cut down the seals inside. This reduces the friction and makes it into a true manual rack. At least on the Mazda's the seal creates quite a bit of drag.
Oh and one quick tip for those who aren't very strong and need to do a lot of parallel parking... learn to park in less than 3 maneuvers.
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Just want to chime in and say that after a week of no power steering I don't think I'll ever go back. It's awesome! Yes parking and maneuvering around tight spots is tough, but you get used to it. I took my 318 out to my first non PS autocross and it felt really responsive. I can't really say anything negative about it at all. There were even some u-turns on the track and I got a lot of crap from fellow racers about whether I was still going to like it with all of the u-turns... Actually I think that what screwed me up is that I prepared myself to have to strong arm it so much that I oversteered by overcompensating the emount of energy required to turn the wheel in the tight spaces.
I can see how a tighter rack would definitely make things better, I'm probably going to upgrade the rack because it can only help. But if you're considering deleting it you should do it, other than my springs it's my favorite thing I've done to the car since I got it!!!
Thanks again for all of the feedback though, couldn't have done it without you.
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i know in houston you'll want to keep your AC, so i suggest doing an e-fan next. removing or replacing driven accessories gets addictive but it is more rewarding every time :)
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I looked into this and was never able to find a description for disassembling the rack other than a comment that it requires a special tool.
If you know anything about it, please share.
Quite a few whiners in here. I disconnected the PS on my miata, threw on coilovers and adjusted for max caster (been a while but IIRC it's around 6 degree's) along with -2.5 camper and running 205/50/15 falken azenis. Ratio is about 3.5 lock to lock. I'm small and I can still easily handle parallel parking it.
One thing the Mazda guys do to the PS racks, that I've yet to do to mine, is tear apart the rack and cut down the seals inside. This reduces the friction and makes it into a true manual rack. At least on the Mazda's the seal creates quite a bit of drag.
Oh and one quick tip for those who aren't very strong and need to do a lot of parallel parking... learn to park in less than 3 maneuvers.
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This is the best article i know of on the subject but its for Miatas.
http://flyinmiata.com/tech/depower.php?x=1
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Deekay, I'm really gonna wish the A/C was in by summertime, but there was no A/C when I bought the car so we'll see how unbearable it gets, I might have to put it back in! When you say e-fan you mean the volvo fan mod that's all over the forums?
Since my old rack was leaking, I'm going to see if I can remove the seals in a similar manner as the miata rack article (great article by the way) and let you know if/how it works out.
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That's a great link. I'll post some pics if I get around to doing it...
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ecalder: sorry i jumped in here so late, the email notifications aren't working, and I don't visit the M42 club all too often (i should....) but your steering is fine. When taking U-turns, the steering does get harder when the steering gets really sharp, but I am getting used to it, and its manageable, really. When drifting you kind of have to hang onto the steering wheel more than with power steering because the road wants to force the wheel back to the straight position, but like someone pointed out above, that can be a good thing, you will know by feel how far your wheels are turned.
And on another note: I have 15x7 Kosei K1s with 205 width rubber, and that makes it a bit harder, but with my bottlecaps and snow tires, there is almost absolutely no feel difference between PS and non-PS at all. the wider and stickier your tires get, the harder the steering will get, but that is a balance we Real Men (no PS) must find.
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Yes the old high treadwear tires on the bottlecaps make a huge difference for sure!
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I can't get the lower bolt on the rack off because the oil pan is not allowing me to get the socket wrench in there to get it off ugh any help is appreciated and quickly because it is in the garage on jack stands, therefore my dad wants me to hurry up lol.
TIA
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use a box-end wrench
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that would be great if i had a 22mm... tool run lol
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I just looped my lines... P.S. is for women. :D
Honestly though, it isn't unbearable and I prefer not having it.
Here is a picture of what I did, basically just cut the stock lines and then attached a hose with clamps...fin.
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c368/formulatwo/photo2-18.jpg?t=1272440300)
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I can't get the lower bolt on the rack off because the oil pan is not allowing me to get the socket wrench in there to get it off ugh any help is appreciated and quickly because it is in the garage on jack stands, therefore my dad wants me to hurry up lol.
TIA
Open the hood, unbolt the driver's side engine mount from the cross member from underneath the car, then jack up the oil pan to lift up the engine an inch or two.