M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Swaps, Turbos, Buildups => Topic started by: ahriley91 on December 22, 2009, 09:13:10 PM
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Has anyone seen an e30 318is with itb's and a turbo? Post anything that you find because i am interested in starting this project. I am aware of all of the custom fabrications that would be needed to make this happen. What would be necessary to make this possible? Anything and everything will help. Thanks.
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LOL... you got me all excited. I thought you were posting about one you had done or found on the interwebs. :(
A buddy of mine has a set of Hyabusa ITB's and it definitely got me thinking... then I realized I have enough to think about getting the car completely tuned on MS to worry about throwing another variable in there.
Hopefully someone knows of one and posts it.
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I actually have found some people who have done it, but they don't explain how they did it. It is very annoying. I'll post a link. It's actually some guys photobucket. haha.
http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k267/Bonje_80/318is%20turbo/?action=view¤t=IMG_1064.jpg
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itb's are redundant with a turbo, save your money and buy an AEM ems
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http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab87/95isturbo/2009-12-18190731.jpg
That redundant piece is mine by the way.
GSX-R 1000 FTW
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^^^^ Have you got a build thread kicking around
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Is it really that redundant? I wouldn't think that it would be that redundant. More air flow. Would a new intake be just as useful? I want to know what kinda power it would make. Any videos or build threads would be nice. I'm mostly interested in learning about it.
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Trial and Error was the way , but if you go back to the basics its a motor detuned to street level with focus on economy and reliability and one of the features that does that on this excellent engine is the intake manifold , and average gains from a intake manifold would be anywhere from 10-30hp with a tune and some adjustments of the motor (cams) .
The reason i went with ITBs on my turbo set up is to let the motor breathe better and throttle response for drifting and getting rid of that wacky restrictive Intake Manifold .
The old car was a 95 318is (RIP) that i had for 4 years (2yrs Boosted)
And the silver 97 M3 is my current project ,
and yes i sold the whole m3 drivetrain out of that car and dropped the m42 in there with all the other goodies i had from my 318 and then some the car should be done within a month im doing the turbo piping right now and now it will have that ITB manifold with the haltech that i bought of this forum im shooting for 300whp on stock motor and in some time with a built motor 500+whp is my goal this is going to be a circuit/drift car only no street use is intended .
http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab87/95isturbo/083.jpg
http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab87/95isturbo/StreetWarrior.jpg
http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab87/95isturbo/0607071905.jpg
http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab87/95isturbo/083.jpg
http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab87/95isturbo/IMAG0109.jpg
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LOL that's awesome! S50 to m42 swap. Haha... suck it 4 pot nay sayers. :)
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itb's are redundant with a turbo, save your money and buy an AEM ems
ITBs have been used with turbocharging on a couple of factory engines that i can think off off the top of my head; the most similar one to ours would be the nissan SR20DE in the pulsar/sunny gti-r.
what i think is interesting to note is that compared to the "vanilla" turbo engines found in the RWD nissans, the ITB'd engines used a T28 turbo instead of the usual T25 (same turbine, bigger compressor).
seeing as these engines actually did make about 30hp more than the non-ITBd turbos, i think that's a pretty strong argument against redundancy. engineers built these cars for rally homologation, not as "technology showcases", which makes me inclined to say they wouldn't have introduced more complexity unless it were really worth it.
anyway, OP: i'm working on it also. just have a lot going on atm. might need to pick up something else to daily so my 'vert can just live at the shop for a while.
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I know everyone states thier personal opinion on this website. So I will give you mine. Whether you like it or not. I think you can do whatever you want to to your car. I personally don't give a shit if you little fuck tards wanna tell me about how you know some other fuck ass that has put ITB's and a turbo and your personal opinion is that "you don't think its a good idea". I say let the dude do what he wants to his car. I think its an awesome idea and if it produces more power and he/she blows up their motor for it. Well so be it.
I work with a bunch of American muscle guys and they ragged on me about owning a piece of German Engineering. Well I showed them. Now all of them if not most are looking to get into SOLO GTII trials. Its BMW this and that.
Let the guy do what he want to his car. If you don't have anything productive to add THEN DON'T. Just that simple. OUT!
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Its worth it IF you have the rest of the stuff to go with it.
IE: Fully ported head, cams pistons block work etc.
The cost of ITB throttle bodies buys a LOT of internal engine work.
Dave
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Very true Dave, very true.
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Its worth it IF you have the rest of the stuff to go with it.
IE: Fully ported head, cams pistons block work etc.
The cost of ITB throttle bodies buys a LOT of internal engine work.
Dave
that bit of "forum wisdom" gets passed around a lot. direct experience has caused me to disagree with it.
put simply, combined with an exhaust, MarkD chip and 24lb/hr injectors, the dbilas itb/alpha-N setup provided -noticeable- gains on a stock m42 longblock. most noticeable is a willingness to wind out all the way to 7k rpm. think about it- replace the 80's-tech flapping-door AFM with a nice big open intake, and get rid of the first-generation intake manifold for something designed to put the powerband at the top of the tach, and the engine is going to flow more at high RPM. this should not surprise anyone.
i don't know who started the rumor that ITBs are "only worthwhile on built/race engines", but they were wrong. if anything, the opposite is true- if you've spent the money on headwork and cams but are still using the AFM and e30 intake manifold, you are probably leaving power on the table.
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I think this a rare occasion where you are both right.
On an engine like the m42/m44, where the intake manifold is a massive deliberate restriction in power
(for emissions purposes, to keep it's power away from the "higher" models and as a side effect of the hunt for more torque),
then throttle bodies on their own when combined with proper tuning and fuel/spark supporting mods, will make a massive difference in power and the freeness of the engine.
However, in the case of an engine like the F20c or K20a found in some of the more recent Hondas, throttle bodies become more of a supporting mod for head or cam work, rather than a completely independent mod.
Thats not to say you wont make more power from a change to ITBs on a K20/F20, but the increase in power will be less dramatic compared to an m42/m44.
The main difference is that on an m42/m44, the main restriction is the intake manifold, where as on a K20/F20, the intake is quite evenly matched to the head, and both are quite high performing parts to begin with.
Regarding independent throttle bodies combined with forced induction, they are generally not used other than to compensate for a biased manifold design and/or where fine adjustment of the individual runner flow is necessary.
For the GTI-R and the Skyline GT-R, i think it was equal parts of both.
On GTI-R for example, the intake manifold was at an almost perpendicular angle to the runners due to space restriction in the engine bay,
and also the car was designed with the intention of being homologated for racing, so fine adjustment of the individual runner flow was desirable.
Whether the same principle applies to the m42/m44, i dont know, as i have yet to build my manifold.
However, the evidence seems to suggest that they are a good idea, as with the car linked above, i read somewhere that it is making signifigant hp. (400+bhp)
http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k267/Bonje_80/318is%20turbo/ (http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k267/Bonje_80/318is%20turbo/)
I think this could be down to the throttle bodies being able to compensate for the reasonably perpendicular manifold design caused by the long intake runners (which are good for torque) almost like having your cake and eating it too : ).
I will state however, that i certain cases like on high powered Skyline GT-R, the independent throttle bodies start to become a restriction when compared to a single throttle body, but this mod is generally combined with a very well designed intake manifold.
This is all based upon my own personal experience, reading engine design books, talking with engineers and through my college work.
It is by no means fact, just my observations on the scenario which i hope are correct, or at least make SOME sort of sense.
Quinn11m20
It was unfortunate that you cursed in your post, as you managed to dilute an otherwise valid point.
Cars are made for having fun. Whether it is having fun while building the car, or having fun with the car you've built, it is important to do things in a way that suits you. Forget trends and forum opinion, it is YOUR car at the end of the day.
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that bit of "forum wisdom" gets passed around a lot. direct experience has caused me to disagree with it.
put simply, combined with an exhaust, MarkD chip and 24lb/hr injectors, the dbilas itb/alpha-N setup provided -noticeable- gains on a stock m42 longblock. most noticeable is a willingness to wind out all the way to 7k rpm. think about it- replace the 80's-tech flapping-door AFM with a nice big open intake, and get rid of the first-generation intake manifold for something designed to put the powerband at the top of the tach, and the engine is going to flow more at high RPM. this should not surprise anyone.
i don't know who started the rumor that ITBs are "only worthwhile on built/race engines", but they were wrong. if anything, the opposite is true- if you've spent the money on headwork and cams but are still using the AFM and e30 intake manifold, you are probably leaving power on the table.
Ok let me say this a little different.
Direct experience for me has been that ITB's don't add to my driving experience in most street cars. Most of them that I've driven with motorcycle throttle bodies make lots of cool noise but They don't seem to dyno out higher power numbers, but they sure move the powerband up! Which is handy if thats what you want to drive.They cause issues with smog and I live in a green state so I'm stuck without them.
I have a E36, M42, so I have no trouble winding up to 7K (or as close as the rev limiter allows. So the reference point is critical, comparing a OLd E30 manifold to ITB's I could definately see it. From my manifold to ITB's I would not expect to see a big power number jump, Without at least a cam.
And the engine shop that does the work on the race cars I deal with has dynoed the flapper valve AFM several times including a M42 and it really does not affect power until you up in the 6000 range, which my street car doesn't. If its a pure track car now that's a different story.
Basically I think ITB's are application and installation specific, do the work right and tune the package and there may be something there. But I'd still spend the money on the cams and pistons and head-work first, then front it with the right intake and exhaust systems.
Dave
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if we were talking about an m20 i'd agree.
the m42, however, already has cam out to 7000rpm as you've mentioned (and my markD chip will go there also), and 10:1 CR.
it's no skin off my nose if you disagree, but i don't regret spending $1200 on a set of dbilas' which were engineered to work with this engine (not a grafted-on set from a sportbike) and not two or three times as much for slightly more compression and slightly more cam; considering that radical changes to both are also ruled out by living in CA or OR (and are also not as easily reversed come smog-check time).
finally, the argument that the e36 manifold is somehow superior isn't really borne out by the fact that a.) peak horsepower is the same and b.) metric mechanic didn't bother to use it for their rally/race builds.
none of this is to say i'm not going to dig into the engine at some point in the future; it just makes more sense to me to eliminate external bottlenecks first.
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I didn't say the e36 manifold was superior, i just said I don't expect the ITB's to raise the HP number "much", without some extra parts. :)
I can see how if you get a set of ITB's that are engineered to work on the car you'd get some good throttle response. and likely more snap up high.
Metric Mechanic does not likely install ITB's on stock engines either.... Do they even build stock engines? :D
Its all a question of $$ per HP. and it can be a chicken and egg problem, youll need a decent cam to really light up the ITB's and you need ITB's to really exploit a good cam.
Anybody ever done a dyno compare between the E30 and E36 intake manifolds under boost?
I'm finding smog is less of a deal for me now that Oregon went back to no under hood just a sniff test. For Pre-OBDII vehicles! Whooo Hoo! Gotta like the 95....
Dave
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However, the evidence seems to suggest that they are a good idea, as with the car linked above, i read somewhere that it is making signifigant hp. (400+bhp)
http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k267/Bonje_80/318is%20turbo/ (http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k267/Bonje_80/318is%20turbo/)
528 rwhp :D But he didn't like the engine response so he's re-doing a lot of stuff to improve that. Here's the build thread http://www.pure-pf.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4425
(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k267/Bonje_80/318is%20turbo/DSC01477.jpg)
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Looks serious!
Dave
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what holset is he running?
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It's a heavily modified mix between HX40 and H1E.
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if we were talking about an m20 i'd agree.
the m42, however, already has cam out to 7000rpm as you've mentioned (and my markD chip will go there also), and 10:1 CR.
it's no skin off my nose if you disagree, but i don't regret spending $1200 on a set of dbilas' which were engineered to work with this engine (not a grafted-on set from a sportbike) and not two or three times as much for slightly more compression and slightly more cam; considering that radical changes to both are also ruled out by living in CA or OR (and are also not as easily reversed come smog-check time).
finally, the argument that the e36 manifold is somehow superior isn't really borne out by the fact that a.) peak horsepower is the same and b.) metric mechanic didn't bother to use it for their rally/race builds.
none of this is to say i'm not going to dig into the engine at some point in the future; it just makes more sense to me to eliminate external bottlenecks first.
I always read about hte metric mechanic this, enough airflow that, but I'd bet some serious dollars that Metric Mechanic is not fabricating ITBS because of the cost to make one vs the profit they get out of it. But I'd like to see someone with the metric mechanic motor, swap on some ITB's and really see a difference. I mean if ITB's arent better, then why are they on the s42 race car, the s14 with a 7k redline, and all the euro s5x s3x motors?
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I always read about hte metric mechanic this, enough airflow that, but I'd bet some serious dollars that Metric Mechanic is not fabricating ITBS because of the cost to make one vs the profit they get out of it. But I'd like to see someone with the metric mechanic motor, swap on some ITB's and really see a difference. I mean if ITB's arent better, then why are they on the s42 race car, the s14 with a 7k redline, and all the euro s5x s3x motors?
WE shall see shortly. I will have my motor running very soon. Not a MM motor but a stroked motor with DiBilas' ITB's and Megasquirt. I'll do a complete write up on it. A couple of trick things to make it different than everyone else's motors.
As far as the S14, it revs to 7800rpm with a chip and some with shim under bucket can go to 8500rpm with no issues.
Just going from 46mm to 48mm ITB's, (which is an almost 10% increase in cross-sectional area), on the S14 makes a big difference so going from a Throttle Body to ITB's, I'm gonna say that there should be a good gain.
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Bonjes engine (the one pictured) is a 2.0litre engine... The first setup gave 615whp on bioethanol and 1.6bar boost :) he is going to dyno it with the new setup soon...
I have a set of s50b30 itb's and a custom alloy intake coming soon. It costs me about 1100 eur complete with the custom intake plenum and a dbilas system costs about 1700eur in norway so i am satisfied:)
I think it will be a much better setup than with the standard intake manifold... I ran 1.6bar boost aswell and hoping to do that with my new engine to and hopefully put out 350whp on 99 octane... think it is possible, this car (http://www.pure-pf.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18869&start=0) managed 334whp on 1.5bar boost and 95 octane :)
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... The first setup gave 615whp on bioethanol ..
No it did not, it was 528 whp. The 615 hp posted dyno sheet is recalculated engine hp from estimated drivetrain losses.
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Well heres some food for thought.
Itb's needs cams. In a n/a situation these cams have lots of over lap and duration. However, i recall from somewhere that turbos do not respond well to lots of overlap. So...whats the solution for a turbo with itb's.
Now most of us drive street cars and there have been alot of turbo builds around 200 bhp. Now on the street, a flat torque curve is nice rather than no power anywhere except right at the top. So...long runner so help with the bottom, a medium turbo to hold the middle and mid-top, and Itb's to keep it strong at the top. So...the big problem here is cams cause im mixing n/a and turbo logic together. Im just throwing out the idea, so...rip it apart guys :)
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WE shall see shortly. I will have my motor running very soon. Not a MM motor but a stroked motor with DiBilas' ITB's and Megasquirt. I'll do a complete write up on it. A couple of trick things to make it different than everyone else's motors.
As far as the S14, it revs to 7800rpm with a chip and some with shim under bucket can go to 8500rpm with no issues.
Just going from 46mm to 48mm ITB's, (which is an almost 10% increase in cross-sectional area), on the S14 makes a big difference so going from a Throttle Body to ITB's, I'm gonna say that there should be a good gain.
Post pics of build please.
And does anyone know if that build link is Swedish or Austrian? I'd like to run it through a translator.
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And does anyone know if that build link is Swedish or Austrian? I'd like to run it through a translator.
If you are talking about the thread I linked, it's Swedish.
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615,5 hp at the wheels: http://www.pure-pf.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4425&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=209
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Itb's needs cams. In a n/a situation these cams have lots of over lap and duration. However, i recall from somewhere that turbos do not respond well to lots of overlap. So...whats the solution for a turbo with itb's.
turbo cars don't like overlap because that is when your intake and exhaust valves are open at the same time. given that the intake side of things is pressurized, if both sets of valves are open, your air/fuel charge will blow through and out of the combustion chamber and never get lit by spark.
that said- the m42 has adjustable cam sprockets. if you find yourslf limited by the stock cams and need something more aggressive, and the grind profile has overlap when both cams are at 0deg, then advance the intake cam and retard the exhaust cam until overlap is gone.
i have itb's now, have most of the turbo bits ready, just saving up to get it all put in. i think i'm going to be fine with the stock cams... but your goals may be different. if you are trying to make peak power above 7000rpm, then i would worry about the cam profile. otherwise i think you will be OK with stockers.
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Everybody's debating the ITB's- something I observed my dad discover while messing with intake setups and different runner lengths, etc. on his 240Z track car is that there is a lot to tuning an intake! Closing valves create pressure waves that can starve successive cylinders of their mixture and so forth. Short runners favor high revs which require short ratio gear boxes to utilize effectively. What we need is a performance tuner to engineer an effective setup that takes the guesswork out of the equation. Then we can simply go out and purchase it for $2495! Argue about HP all you guys want, but I think the real benefit to ITB's is wicked fast throttle response. No argument there. Also, I'm thinking a guy's not going to get much boost before knock while turbocharging an engine with a 10:1 CR. Planning on a piston swap?
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615,5 hp at the wheels: http://www.pure-pf.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4425&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=209
Once again, NO! He is a friend of mine and I know what I'm talking about. That curve is recalculated to flywheel hp. Since you are from norway you should be able to understand swedish pretty well, what does Bmwandreas say in the top post on page 9 in his thread?
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Also, I'm thinking a guy's not going to get much boost before knock while turbocharging an engine with a 10:1 CR. Planning on a piston swap?
With E85 fuel it's fully possible :)
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What we need is a performance tuner to engineer an effective setup that takes the guesswork out of the equation. Then we can simply go out and purchase it for $2495!
you mean like this?
(http://alceria.net/dk/pics/e30/itbd.jpg)
;)
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DIY is much cheaper.
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DIY is much cheaper.
we know. but that's not what we're talking about.
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Shameless plug.
I have an ITB stup for sale in the for sale forum if anyone is interested in upping their game.